I'm a bit rushed, but I think this website describes the best option we have. Given that some obvious truths, and glaring facts are being ignored here....
The thread is a debate about weather spaced based solar power (a plan to remove our dependence on oil/fossil fuels) is good for the environment or not... maybe techno-fear by a stretch...
Now we're stuck in some strange situation where none of the 3 participants (myself included) are actually posting about the topic. This has to be hilarious.
This has been tried and is considered a joke because it doesn't work. It is sad, because geo-thermal energy could be a huge help. Alas if we did "bore-hole" mining it would be much more dangerous and much more polluting than we currently are. So geo-thermal is usually relegated to special locations, where it doesn't harm anything to utilize.Originally Posted by naturehappens
Ditto!
double ditto!
In theory, couldn't it be done over the caldera in YellowStone? It would privide endless amounts of energy and alieve pressure so that maybe the caldera doesn't blow it's top and spew volcanic, gas, lava and ash all over the U.S. I know, crazy guy..... crazy ideas.
The only reason space based solar power is considered at all by anyone is because the human population keeps growing and demanding more and more energy. But wouldn't it be extremely expensive to launch and maintain since repair crews would have to be rocketed up periodically to fix this or that component when it wore out, or was damaged by space junk? Wouldn't it be MUCH cheaper to peacefully reduce the human population and rely on land based solar power, wind power, etc.?
The people of Iceland get a lot of geothermal energy from their ongoing volcano there, and so far I think they've been sensible enough not to push it too far. Considering what has happened with under sea bore hole drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, imagine what might happen if somebody drilled deep into an area like YellowStone. It might be called a "controlled eruption" but the techtonic plates are always inching along and eventually the drill hole would become a major eruption. Let YellowStone be YellowStone. Let the Earth be the Earth, if it isn't already too late to be so wise.In theory, couldn't it be done over the caldera in YellowStone? It would privide endless amounts of energy and alieve pressure so that maybe the caldera doesn't blow it's top and spew volcanic, gas, lava and ash all over the U.S. I know, crazy guy..... crazy ideas.
Now you're speaking my language here! Yes it is extremely expensive to launch anything from earth, that's why the plan is to use resources from the moon, because it's cheaper and a whole lot of other reasons. As for land based solar, wind power, OTEC, geo-thermal, tidal, Hydro, they cannot replace fossil fuels, there just isn't enough energy produced by them. The numbers don't add up. The lower fossil fuels run, the louder they're going to scream for nuclear... and that's way worse!
There is no plan that can peacefully reduce the human population, it just won't happen. There's to many people willing to fight against it, and no it's not a fight against equal rights. Humans are life, and subject to the things living organisms do, to take away the desire to procreate is to remove the desire to be life (not alive notice i used this word). Procreation is not a "macho" concept it is a living concept.
So, first we would have to establish an industrial base on the Moon, then using minerals mined from the Moon, manufacture many space-based solar satellites to reflect the Sun's rays down onto the surface of the Earth. But isn't the Sun already doing that free of charge? Ah, but not enough to supply the energy needed for this growing population and its growing economy that apparently intends to grow forever. Hmmm. It looks to me like the growing population is the problem - too much of our good thing turning everything bad.
But you're right, procreation by itself is not a macho concept, but it's not really by itself, is it? Men are driven by their natural excess of testosterone to yearn and lust for power to dominate their growing family, their growing community, their growing nation, their growing World and the growing Cosmos beyond. In their instinct-driven brains everything must grow forever (even while the Earth is cooling and shrinking). So, they head giant corporations and super powerful nations to impose their will on our commercially deluded humanity, and there is no limit to their ambitions.
Why? because they are subconsciously haunted by images of death that are everywhere around them on this Earth where all life must kill and devour life to live. It is a paradox that drives them mad with rage to re-arrange things so they can go on living and conquering forever. All they need is a little "re-juve" shot in the arm once a month. So, their scientists are working on it day and night.
The above mad scenario is polluting the Earth to toxic shock, ecocide and the extinction of thousands of species, including us, leaving only insects and bacteria - all because Mankind is insane with greed for ever-more wealth and power, and therefore corporations hate to spend their power-money on expensive safety procedures that eat up the profits designed for further expansion = another "national sacrifice area" the Gulf of Mexico.
It's a question of education. Boys also have a gentle side to their nature, since as you notice, we are born with little tits, indicating that in our mother's womb we were first conceived as girls, then testosterone kicked in and we were transformed into boys. So, we are capable of becoming gentlemen, not rabid conquerors, defenders of women and children, not drone-wielding warriors, green technologists, not mad, scheming scientists, green recyclers not polluters. We can do all that and more IF we accept the natural cycles of birth and death, and when the time comes, peacefully surrender ourselves surrounded by the love of our family and friends, and IF we give all women their natural right to decide if and when to birth their children. Men do not own the World, but like it or not, share it with women and children. That would have been enough for me, if I had ever had a conscious choice, but I didn't, nor do most boys and girls in this psychotic civilization. We are all born into that contradiction in terms.
Last edited by nrdthxpr; 06-07-2010 at 09:43 AM. Reason: spelling
I've been thinking about a good response for a while now, and the only thing I could come up with was to set a few facts straight. I guess it's just a bit of nitpicking or what have you.
I was a part of the party at the beginning, but left after a while. They are not masquerading, they truely beleive they're being robbed. Liberty is essential to a beings (woman or man) existence, any suggestion otherwise will reveal that you do not advocate a voluntary plan. Be careful when mincing politics it's a very dirty subject. Most participants at the bottom level truely beleive in the stated goals, its often the leaders who do not. Hence, I left the party.
It's quite clear that oil is created only during an anoxic ocean event. The stuff is not continually produced, the abiogenic "russian" theory has been debunked for a very long time. Read up on the anoxic event stuff, it'll probably blow your mind about the whole global warming thing...
We don't live on a shrinking planet, the mass of the planet grows annually. There are many, many effects, atmospheric loss due to solar wind, asteroid accumulation, etc, but the actual value grows at an extremely small rate. As for the cooling process its extremely slow, so slow it will have not cooled by much when 5 billion years from now earth is swallowed by the sun. We live on a pretty static planet as far as internal temp & mass.
I love this quote! I just had to quote it!
Yes I suppose war, and bullets are cheaper than building and creation... war being the "natural" way that men decrease their population...
Man there's a lot twisted in the paragraph... No, the plan is not to "reflect" the suns rays so to say this would be catastrophically wrong. Microwaves can be tuned to pass through air and vapor (cell phones). Yes the sun is doing it free, but we only see a tiny portion of that on earths surface. Growth? what are we robots that can stop production?
Men are life, why would be be entirely separate in our instincts than the system that we are a part of. And, yeah those vaccines are scary!! I understand it was a metaphor, but the re-juve shot you're talking about is space... but it has some harsh lessons to teach us. Basically in short without writing a dissertation: Men cannot live without life & war/violence in space is not an option.
man you should have seen me as a boy then (j/k) I was a hellion from day 1.... then I got gentile @ pub.... well that's a long story...
To wrap it up, I hope for a good nitpick back, or something you've been cooking up... don't feel the need for an immediate response give it some time like this bit that took me a while to come up with:
Man is life, but he has very different tools. These tools set him aside, but not apart. Take care to not step in the dogma that many athiests and reliigons alike have, setting man apart from life. We have the same desires as other living organisms, but the tools we have are unequaled. To remove the desire to live, would surely kill us. To admonish mankind for the desire to grow, is the same as admonishing any other living organism. The only goal that can be accomplished by educating men/women against procreation is to remove the less fooled from the population. Where providence has given us a chance, a barren wasteland of a universe. We cannot go into the stars without taking 1000 lbs to one of ours of other life, and the reality will be much different than our imaginations.
and yes you can quote me,
Logan Knox
You make some interesting points, but they all ignore the absurd scenario of a growing mass of predators devouring and destroying their source of life.
I have arrived at the point in my own elderly life when I recognize a terrible inevitability about our human species. Apparently, growth is an obsessive-compulsive instinct that no amount of logical reasoning can dissuade or re-direct, and it will push onward relentlessly despite any consequences. So, for all these years I have been shoveling sand against the industrial/scientific tide of "progress", however destructive and ecocidal it certainly is.
It's an awful dilemma for me, because I have studied and learned exactly how everyone could live in peace, prosperity and cultural excellence for thousands of years into our planetary future -- but that's not what people want, or I should say that's not what men want, for depite women's liberation, they still choose to be very much along for the thrilling ride of ever-expanding conquest.
I would caution: "You cannot launch a space program from a dead planet" as I have on other forums over the years, but it falls on the deaf ears of people who cannot stop and think long enough to pause and reflect. Human society is busy, busy, busy and nothing will stop it except its own self-defeating delusionary myopia, which is everywhere and growing the more overcrowded we become. Thus, I am weary and sad and I need to rest from this burden of Cassandra.
I cannot wish you good luck because I detest what you're trying to do, but I forgive you because you are, after all, a human being and that's what human beings do. Goodbye to you, and goodbye to Green Forum.
Last edited by nrdthxpr; 06-23-2010 at 10:43 AM.
You make some good points, thanks for the articles to read up on.
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